Sian Jones joined our Let Toys Be Toys – Parenting Science Gang to help us refine our
research ideas.
Siân Jones: I’m an Associate Lecturer at Goldsmiths and Birkbeck, UoL,
and have a PhD in Psychology. My research is mainly in the area of developmental and
educational psychology. I have most recently focused on children’s group (social)
identities and how pretend play, can help to encourage more positive interactions
between children from different groups. When it comes to gender identity, I’ve looked
at how children see bullying as more or less serious depending on whether it is done by
a girl or a boy to a girl or a boy (so physical bullying from girls towards boys is
more serious, for example)
PSG A: I know you’ve been looking at our questions this last
week, we’d love to know your thoughts.
Siân: I thought they were all really interesting
questions – some with more done towards answering them by researchers than others.
I
saw a common theme between several of them in looking at the messages that children
receive from media / adults around them that stereotype a gender role – and what
children “do” with this information.
So, what do children take from messages in books
that have stereotypical (or otherwise) gender roles, for example and conversely – how
do adults gender stereotype children’s behaviour – and enable it – or not?
Looking at
the messages children receive and take in around gender roles is a really fascinating
area for me.
As you discussed in another thread [in the Let Toys Be Toys PSG group] I
thought it might be good for you to play to your strengths as parents – and look at the
messages you give your children.
One of the research topics being considered by this
group is:
Neurodivergent children & behaviour stereotypes: how much does gender bias
influence peoples’ judgement on disruptive behaviour for neurodivergent children (e.g.
“He’s a typical boy!” vs “Is she like this all the time?”)
Siân: I wonder if we could
start with the way neurodivergent versus neurotypical children’s behaviour is seen as
gender-consistent or not…
PSG E: Do you have a suggestion as to how we might do
that?
Siân: You might look at children’s choice of play / toys and whether they are NT
/ neurodivergent at different ages
PSG A: PSG F suggested the question, based on
personal experience. She said:
as a parent of neurodivergent children, two of my
children are very similar, and have shown many of the same slightly unusual behaviours
at the same age. When it was my daughter, people would sidle up to me and ask Is she
like this all the time??”” and started talking to me about autism when she was 15
months old. By contrast, now that i have a boy who does the same things, i get “”Oh,
he’s such a boy.”” or “”He’s just a typical boy!””, even when, for example, there are
approximately 60 children in the room, about half of them boys, and only one (mine)
whose behaviour stands out visibly.
PSG F: My thinking was about how when people are
looking at small children, do they gloss over parental concerns over boys, because
“boys talk late” “boys are so physical” “boys just don’t sit still”, etc. We know that
girls who do not stand out behaviourally (and they are less likely to) fly under the
radar and are diagnosed later, but are boys missing out on early diagnosis and support
due to adult’s gendered perceptions of their behaviour.
Siân: This is a really valid
concern. My understanding is that child services are increasingly aware of this, and
instruments are changing – but slowly.
Firstly, what do folk understand by the term
neurodivergent in this context?
Siân: It can mean different things in different
circles….
PSG F: autism, but also other things such as ADHD, dyspraxia, non-verbal
learning disorder, tourettes…
PSG E: If I’m honest, I’m not sure I completely
understand what it means, other than autism
PSG G: If we’re all on a spectrum how do
you define where is typical & not typical? I’m a bit lost on this to be honest.
PSG C:
Yes, me too. I see ‘traits’ in lots of children but not sure when it ‘tips over’.
Siân:
You could score children on a measure of autism / adhd etc… or compare children with
and without certain diagnoses…
PSG G: So there isn’t a spectrum then? There are
definite symptoms & diagnoses? Sorry I’m really unknowledgeable on this.
PSG A: The
idea of ASD being a spectrum isn’t that we’re all on it. You either are or you’re not.
As I understand it, many people on the autistic spectrum don’t feel they want a “cure”.
They feel autism is an integral part of them.
That’s partly what the idea
neurodivergent is about – that those whose brains aren’t typical shouldn’t be
automatically thought of as disabled. Divergent, not less than.
PSG G: Thanks, that
makes sense.
PSG B: So neurotypical refers to people that aren’t autistic, even if they
see the world quite different from that around them?
Siân: Neurodivergent can be other
things too like ADHD.
PSG A: My understanding is that neurotypical is the absence of
any conditions such as autism, ADHD, tourettes etc etc
Neurotypical includes
interesting and varied, even eccentric, it doesn’t mean boring, necessarily!
PSG F: A
spectrum is not a sliding scale.
PSG G: Are there spectrums for some of these
conditions & not for others then? Sorry very new to this area.
Siân: One could even out
numbers to account for this.
PSG F: Yes, tourettes for example is also a spectrum
condition, with some people having learning and sometimes very severe behaviour
challenges, others having only very mild tics.
PSG H: The difficulty with this could be
that there are a % (probably significant amount) with no diagnosis?
PSG F: yes, the
only way i could think of to look at it would be retrospectively, which probably isn’t
as good. :/
PSG E: My concern is that it becomes neurotypical vs neurodivergent and
that conclusions are down to that difference more than gender stereotypes
Siân: It
could do. It would depend on how you measured neurodivergence
PSG E: But to be honest,
I am with PSG G in that I’m a bit lost
Siân: Hmmm. It might not be the one that plays
best to your strengths as a PSG.
PSG C: I was starting to think that!
PSG E: It’s
certainly harder for those who don’t know much about it
How do gendered messages affect
children?
Another of the research topics being considered by this group is:
Bedtime
reading: Do stereotypes in stories effect children’s perceptions of gender?
(Intervention-based study, lots of parents reading books at bedtime)
Siân: How do you
feel about changing / playing with the messages you give children (in books / films /
toys) and looking at how that affects their stereotyping / beliefs about gender?
PSG C:
Yes, I think this is one we’ve talked most about and feel we could access a pool of
parents who could help.
PSG F: I think that would be really interesting to do.
PSG I:
I’m really interested in that one
Has much research been carried out in this area?
Gender and books?
Siân: There has been lots of content analysis proving that females
are portrayed as weak and weedy and passive et al – and that this has shifted some in
recent years. Less on what children pick up from it.
PSG F: What about what adults pick
up on it from reading with children? (just noticing my children’s gran making reference
to girl/boy thing s a lot about current films/stories, as though referencing current
culture for framing children’s anticipated interest.
Which media would you most be
interested in working with ?
Siân: Films…audio books, tablet books, toys…..paper
books….others?
PSG C: We previously had a chat about books. In particular stories at
bedtime.
PSG E: We also chatted about audio books
PSG H: Paper books for me
PSG E:
Would we have to do just one of those or could we mix media?
Siân: With a bigger pool
you could do more than one medium and compare across, certainly 🙂
PSG G: It would be
good to be flexible, but only if we have enough of each to draw solid
conclusions?
There are some great films with strong child characters.
PSG E: Maybe
films would be easier than books? Especially because it wouldn’t mess with bedtime.
PSG
I: Paper books
PSG G: Books are something that every parent can access and from school
age you often get a book a night – so the impact of a book is important.
Siân: This is
very true 🙂
PSG E: Yes it is true, although kids often watch a lot of television and
film too
PSG G: We have more time for TV at weekends & holidays, but week nights are
full now with clubs etc & homework – we’re year 1.
PSG E: True, I hadn’t considered
that!
PSG G: I wouldn’t have imagined it till this year!
Siân: Is reading a part of the
schedule?
PSG G: Yes
PSG J: But with paper books we cannot control who reads them/ the
voice & expression they use etc.If we’re talking about subtle influences, are we sure
that we voice female characters strongly enough, etc? At least with an audio book or
film, everyone gets closer to the same experience.
PSG G: I think in the chat with
Lauren, she mentioned that if we design good before & after tests then the ‘quality’ of
reading or any bias from us reading e.g. tone of voice would be accounted for in some
way? Maybe q&as for parents etc, or sample size – I haven’t gone back to check but
there seemed to be an answer.
Siân: Yup – certainly you can control for this ?
PSG G:
Am interested in seeing if possible to see a difference between books read by people &
audio. But my kids won’t listen to audio books – they go off and do something else
instead. Maybe we’re just odd!
Sample size
Siân: You would need a reasonable size
sample – at least 20 of you trying each thing
PSG A: One of our strengths as a group is
sample size – for our breast milk experiment we managed 120 mothers and children to
turning up at a university hospital to donate milk, for example.
Doing something at
home (with an incentive of free books!) would be fairly easy to recruit for I
imagine.
PSG C: That’s a great result! I don’t think we’ll struggle to get parents to
join this one, which is another advantage.
PSG D: Although it might be easier in some
ways to turn up somewhere on one day, than to do something consistently for two
weeks!
PSG C: Perhaps, but I couldn’t get to London for that donation so we’re opening
it up to a wider pool of parents.
PSG E: Maybe, but I think i would find it easier to
do something for two weeks in my house than to travel somewhere so I think both have
pros and cons.
PSG D: Yes, absolutely! I’m just thinking that personally I’m much more
likely to do a one-off than remember to do it lots of times…
PSG D: But I may be
particularly crap:-)
PSG C: Yes, I’m the same but my toddler leads the way. If I have
to read Pirate Dinosaurs one more time ?
PSG E: I think my toddler could be persuaded
but we certainly need a study flexible enough to cope with the stubborn days
How long
do the messages stick?
Siân: I think Lauren talked about testing gender stereotypes
before and after – memory tests (what children remember / confuse) are also useful. And
what hasn’t been done is the longer term impact of these messages – so how long do the
messages stick?
One study has shown that children remember info. wrong – that they make
the details of the story gender stereotyped when they weren’t – shows just how embedded
the stereotypes are
PSG F: Wow, that’s actually a little scary!
PSG D: How long term
would you want to measure?
Siân: I want to check. Six weeks I think was what has been
tested: so looking at up to six months later would be good 🙂
PSG A: Siân: that’s so
interesting, would you be able to share the link with us for that study?
Siân: Rebecca
Brueton Sure – Gender Schema and Prejudicial Recall: How Children Misremember,
Fabricate, and Distort Gendered Picture Book Information.
Is it the same people
interested in books or a different group?
PSG E: Are there similar people here to the
chat with Lauren? I’m conscious we’re focusing on the bedtime story theme again when it
didn’t come top of the vote. Although I personally am a big fan of the idea
PSG A: I’ll
check after… my feeling is possibly not. It’s a popular question (top 3).
PSG E: Cool,
personally I really like the idea but I know last time there was some concern from
people that it was a done deal
[Edited to add] Just over half the people at this chat
were not at the previous books chat.
Are children are more likely to play with a toy if
a parent condones it as gender appropriate?
Siân: Children also get messages from the
toys that are marketed at them – from films – and from us. One question might be
whether children are more likely to play with a toy if a parent condones it as gender
appropriate?
e.g. will a boy play with a child if Mum tells them that it is a girl’s
toy?
PSG E: This is really interesting – the Let Toys Be Toys PSG group has lots of
anecdotal stories along these lines
PSG F: maybe something along these lines might be
able to actually give parents something to work with from the outcome? Like if we can
show that a parent can influence a change in a child’s actual play style or willingness
to step outside gender boundaries by making a simple change in how they encourage play,
or what they read, then that might really encourage parents to actually, consciously do
it.
PSG C: Yes, it would be good to see an impact where techniques could be
shared.
Siân: Yes – exactly. Giving children the same toys with a different message
attached to them, and videoing their play (or lack thereof) with the toy would be
interesting.
PSG J: I think this is a really interesting idea. Has much been done in
this area?
The other thing that was touched on in the questions you asked, was about
different types of family and gender bias.
Siân: It would be interesting to measure the
extent of gender stereotyping in different families – and whose messages children
remember (nodding at the prestige question, too)
How easy is it to teach a child to
address an envelope to Mrs and Mr. Higginbottom?
PSG G: Wow – I think I even misread
that on first glance!
PSG E: Me too! I read it more than once as well ??
PSG A: Could
the answer be – possibly easier than an adult?!
Siân: Could be. I don’t think it’s been
done. Would be a case of teaching them – and asking for reproductions to see what they
produced. Could also be done with graphs comparing females and males – lots of
different exercises we could test.
Would be older children with exposure to stereotypes
already.
PSG E: Does this have similarity to the idea of getting kids to draw
recognisable professions and see the gender they draw?
Siân: Yes – that’s a related
thing
PSG G: You’d need to have a particular age group though – writing wise.
Siân: Yes
– although we could do other age appropriate exercises with younger folk
PSG E: Not
only do they need to be able to write but also old enough to understand the concept of
Mr. and Mrs. My toddler certainly doesn’t know about married people
PSG K: How would we
go about something like this? Would we have to have one parent showing gender
stereotypes and one not?
PSG G: Could we get enough family information to draw
conclusions across families in this?
Siân: You’d need circa 20 children from each type
of family.
What about looking at gender stereotypes in Apps?
PSG M: I’m pretty sure
that hasn’t been done yet …
PSG G: Would that be the learning kind of thing? BBC
playtime etc? Or even for older kids – games etc?
PSG A: Uurgh, the gender stereotypes
in the apps marketed at my 5 year old are extreme 🙁
I let her play games I approve of,
but sometimes they’re all full of ads for new games, and before I know it, my phone is
chock-a-block with nail painting and cutesy appearance-based apps aimed at young girls
🙁
Stuff like this Hello Kitty Nail Salon
Siân: Yes – this would be novel to look at,
too as a medium children have access to.
PSG G: Rebecca wow yes – loads of people do
get/suffer with these. I don’t think I know any parent who likes them – there is a lot
of peer/media pressure to get them.
PSG L: There is also friv as a source of gender
stereotype annoyance.
PSG M: Ofcom has just produced 2024 figures for children’s access
to screens, internet etc. broken down by age. Like it or not, children are using Apps,
so maybe they warrant a close look
PSG G: Tablets are very common & for parents working
& busy they are seen as very useful & hopefully educational.
PSG M: Blimey, finger just
slipped and I ended up looking at that Nail Salon thing, OMG! Well, the commercial apps
with pop up ads are one area, but it would also be interesting to take a look at some
of the ones that nurseries and reception classes use, just to check them out, you
know.
Siân: Indeed. You could test a pre-defined selection of apps. And / or if you
have the technical know-how construct some that are less gender-biased and see what
effect those have on gender bias.
Would this project and the results be of interest to
the academic community?
PSG C: It’s one thing doing it because we’re interested but if
the wider world isn’t interested then maybe this isn’t the topic?
PSG A: it’s a good
question – but it begs another question – are we doing this for the academic community,
or for parents? (Or both, or someone else!)
Playing devil’s advocate – does it matter
if the academic community aren’t interested, if parents are?
PSG C: Yes, that’s true.
It might be easier to recruit any expert help we need though if it could contribute to
further studies/link with ‘missing’ research. But, you’re right – what the group wants
is more important.
PSG H: We’re all interested so it stands to reason others will be
too 🙂
Siân: I think this would be of interest to academics yes – esp. re: the newer
media (apps et al.).
Could we or would we group families by social class/beliefs
etc?
PSG H: Husband and I have reversed some traditional gender roles (he cooks and
cleans). Also I am really interested in being as aware as I can be on gender bias.
Is
this another pro for our group?
Oo I just had a thought! It might well be worth
measuring.
Have any of our questions been so thoroughly researched already, they’re not
worth pursuing?
PSG A: Or, do you suspect any of them would be particularly tricky for
us to do as a citizen science group?
Siân: I’m not sure about the Early Years staff
questions: they would be interesting but I don’t think they play to your strengths and
would be difficult to execute ethically.
I think playing with the gender messages you
give your children – and the effects that this has on gender bias would be an awesome
thing to look at 🙂
PSG L: I do like the idea of doing something about gender
messages.
Siân: You could either manipulate the messages in books etc. or accompanying
toys – or try teaching your children some gender nonconsistent things and see what they
do with that….
You could also take account of the type of family / gender roles you
perform as parents – and see if that has an influence.
Siân: It would be super-easy to
construct an online survey to measure your child’s gender bias
PSG E: Will greater
number of variables make it harder?
Siân: Nope I don’t think so. They are worth
including so that they can be accounted for statistically later. Only downside is
having more questions in the survey than not measuring them.
PSG G: What kind of sample
size might we need to do this conclusively?
Siân: If you’re testing effects before and
after (measure bias: read book / play with toy /: measure bias) minimum of 20 of each
age being looked at.
PSG G: Siân: – would that be Year age group for older kids? Would
younger ones be split more than that?
Siân: There aren’t hard and fast rules – year
group would be a good indicator, certainly.. You could split further if you had reason
to suspect a developmental change within a given year group – or aggregate across year
groups (key stages) if there was no reason to suspect a developmental change.
What do
you think of the idea of raising children gender neutral? Is it possible?
Siân: It is
done in preschools in Sweden – where gender pronouns are banned
…finding is that
children gender stereotype less than when gendered pronouns are used.
PSG C: Those
Swedes always seem to get it right!
PSG D: But the children are still growing up in a
gendered society. Albeit maybe less gendered than other ones!
Is there much research
looking at whether there are ages at which children are more susceptible to gender
bias?
Siân: Children become aware of their gender aged 2/3 years – after that they are
very susceptible to messages – and prefer same sex friends til they are 11 years…
So
they have the additional influence of those friends, too. Critical thinking doesn’t
kick in till much later…
PSG G: During primary age years or later?!
Siân: Aged 12 years
plus is when children start to be able to think more abstractly about things
PSG E: I
read about children being the strongest policers of gender stereotypes. Did we include
peers as potential strongest influencers?
PSG G:I think we thought about it but not
sure we had any experiment ideas?
PSG N: So this could be one of the variables that are
looked at in whichever question(s) are taken forward, depending on sample sizes?
Siân:
You could certainly include family variables in any survey based study
What one piece
of advice do you wish you’d had before planning your first experiment?
Siân: Test your
measures with a pilot group before rolling them out across a big study…?
Do the
participants understand them as you do…?
PSG D: That sounds like very good
advice!
That’s all folks!
PSG A: Thanks so much for joining us Siân: – you’ve given us
lots to think about!
Siân: Thanks everyone – you’re a great group!
PSG A: Totally
agree, a great group! Now – to make a great study!
PSG E: So
exciting!
Postscript:
Siân: I think the conclusion here is to look at messages in
different media and measure children’s gender stereotyping / gender bias
Related
Links
Let Toys Be Toys – Parenting Science Gang:
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