Sian Jones joined our Let Toys Be Toys – Parenting Science Gang to help us refine our
research ideas.
Siân Jones:❤️ I’m an Associate Lecturer at Goldsmiths and Birkbeck, UoL,
and have a PhD in Psychology. My research is mainly in❤️ the area of developmental and
educational psychology. I have most recently focused on children’s group (social)
identities and how pretend❤️ play, can help to encourage more positive interactions
between children from different groups. When it comes to gender identity, I’ve❤️ looked
at how children see bullying as more or less serious depending on whether it is done by
a girl❤️ or a boy to a girl or a boy (so physical bullying from girls towards boys is
more serious, for❤️ example)
PSG A: I know you’ve been looking at our questions this last
week, we’d love to know your thoughts.
Siân: I❤️ thought they were all really interesting
questions – some with more done towards answering them by researchers than others.
I
saw❤️ a common theme between several of them in looking at the messages that children
receive from media / adults around❤️ them that stereotype a gender role – and what
children “do” with this information.
So, what do children take from messages❤️ in books
that have stereotypical (or otherwise) gender roles, for example and conversely – how
do adults gender stereotype children’s❤️ behaviour – and enable it – or not?
Looking at
the messages children receive and take in around gender roles is❤️ a really fascinating
area for me.
As you discussed in another thread [in the Let Toys Be Toys PSG group] I
❤️ thought it might be good for you to play to your strengths as parents – and look at the
messages❤️ you give your children.
One of the research topics being considered by this
group is:
Neurodivergent children & behaviour stereotypes: how much❤️ does gender bias
influence peoples’ judgement on disruptive behaviour for neurodivergent children (e.g.
“He’s a typical boy!” vs “Is she❤️ like this all the time?”)
Siân: I wonder if we could
start with the way neurodivergent versus neurotypical children’s behaviour is❤️ seen as
gender-consistent or not…
PSG E: Do you have a suggestion as to how we might do
that?
Siân: You might❤️ look at children’s choice of play / toys and whether they are NT
/ neurodivergent at different ages
PSG A: PSG❤️ F suggested the question, based on
personal experience. She said:
as a parent of neurodivergent children, two of my
children are❤️ very similar, and have shown many of the same slightly unusual behaviours
at the same age. When it was my❤️ daughter, people would sidle up to me and ask Is she
like this all the time??”” and started talking to❤️ me about autism when she was 15
months old. By contrast, now that i have a boy who does the❤️ same things, i get “”Oh,
he’s such a boy.”” or “”He’s just a typical boy!””, even when, for example, there❤️ are
approximately 60 children in the room, about half of them boys, and only one (mine)
whose behaviour stands out❤️ visibly.
PSG F: My thinking was about how when people are
looking at small children, do they gloss over parental concerns❤️ over boys, because
“boys talk late” “boys are so physical” “boys just don’t sit still”, etc. We know that
girls❤️ who do not stand out behaviourally (and they are less likely to) fly under the
radar and are diagnosed later,❤️ but are boys missing out on early diagnosis and support
due to adult’s gendered perceptions of their behaviour.
Siân: This is❤️ a really valid
concern. My understanding is that child services are increasingly aware of this, and
instruments are changing –❤️ but slowly.
Firstly, what do folk understand by the term
neurodivergent in this context?
Siân: It can mean different things in different
❤️ circles….
PSG F: autism, but also other things such as ADHD, dyspraxia, non-verbal
learning disorder, tourettes…
PSG E: If I’m honest, I’m❤️ not sure I completely
understand what it means, other than autism
PSG G: If we’re all on a spectrum how do
❤️ you define where is typical & not typical? I’m a bit lost on this to be honest.
PSG C:
Yes, me❤️ too. I see ‘traits’ in lots of children but not sure when it ‘tips over’.
Siân:
You could score children on❤️ a measure of autism / adhd etc… or compare children with
and without certain diagnoses…
PSG G: So there isn’t a❤️ spectrum then? There are
definite symptoms & diagnoses? Sorry I’m really unknowledgeable on this.
PSG A: The
idea of ASD being❤️ a spectrum isn’t that we’re all on it. You either are or you’re not.
As I understand it, many people❤️ on the autistic spectrum don’t feel they want a “cure”.
They feel autism is an integral part of them.
That’s partly❤️ what the idea
neurodivergent is about – that those whose brains aren’t typical shouldn’t be
automatically thought of as disabled.❤️ Divergent, not less than.
PSG G: Thanks, that
makes sense.
PSG B: So neurotypical refers to people that aren’t autistic, even if❤️ they
see the world quite different from that around them?
Siân: Neurodivergent can be other
things too like ADHD.
PSG A: My❤️ understanding is that neurotypical is the absence of
any conditions such as autism, ADHD, tourettes etc etc
Neurotypical includes
interesting and❤️ varied, even eccentric, it doesn’t mean boring, necessarily!
PSG F: A
spectrum is not a sliding scale.
PSG G: Are there spectrums❤️ for some of these
conditions & not for others then? Sorry very new to this area.
Siân: One could even out
❤️ numbers to account for this.
PSG F: Yes, tourettes for example is also a spectrum
condition, with some people having learning❤️ and sometimes very severe behaviour
challenges, others having only very mild tics.
PSG H: The difficulty with this could be
that❤️ there are a % (probably significant amount) with no diagnosis?
PSG F: yes, the
only way i could think of to❤️ look at it would be retrospectively, which probably isn’t
as good. :/
PSG E: My concern is that it becomes neurotypical❤️ vs neurodivergent and
that conclusions are down to that difference more than gender stereotypes
Siân: It
could do. It would depend❤️ on how you measured neurodivergence
PSG E: But to be honest,
I am with PSG G in that I’m a bit❤️ lost
Siân: Hmmm. It might not be the one that plays
best to your strengths as a PSG.
PSG C: I was❤️ starting to think that!
PSG E: It’s
certainly harder for those who don’t know much about it
How do gendered messages affect
❤️ children?
Another of the research topics being considered by this group is:
Bedtime
reading: Do stereotypes in stories effect children’s perceptions of❤️ gender?
(Intervention-based study, lots of parents reading books at bedtime)
Siân: How do you
feel about changing / playing with the❤️ messages you give children (in books / films /
toys) and looking at how that affects their stereotyping / beliefs❤️ about gender?
PSG C:
Yes, I think this is one we’ve talked most about and feel we could access a pool❤️ of
parents who could help.
PSG F: I think that would be really interesting to do.
PSG I:
I’m really interested in❤️ that one
Has much research been carried out in this area?
Gender and books?
Siân: There has been lots of content analysis❤️ proving that females
are portrayed as weak and weedy and passive et al – and that this has shifted some❤️ in
recent years. Less on what children pick up from it.
PSG F: What about what adults pick
up on it❤️ from reading with children? (just noticing my children’s gran making reference
to girl/boy thing s a lot about current films/stories,❤️ as though referencing current
culture for framing children’s anticipated interest.
Which media would you most be
interested in working with ?
Siân:❤️ Films…audio books, tablet books, toys…..paper
books….others?
PSG C: We previously had a chat about books. In particular stories at
bedtime.
PSG E:❤️ We also chatted about audio books
PSG H: Paper books for me
PSG E:
Would we have to do just one of❤️ those or could we mix media?
Siân: With a bigger pool
you could do more than one medium and compare across,❤️ certainly 🙂
PSG G: It would be
good to be flexible, but only if we have enough of each to draw❤️ solid
conclusions?
There are some great films with strong child characters.
PSG E: Maybe
films would be easier than books? Especially because❤️ it wouldn’t mess with bedtime.
PSG
I: Paper books
PSG G: Books are something that every parent can access and from school
❤️ age you often get a book a night – so the impact of a book is important.
Siân: This is
very❤️ true 🙂
PSG E: Yes it is true, although kids often watch a lot of television and
film too
PSG G: We❤️ have more time for TV at weekends & holidays, but week nights are
full now with clubs etc & homework❤️ – we’re year 1.
PSG E: True, I hadn’t considered
that!
PSG G: I wouldn’t have imagined it till this year!
Siân: Is❤️ reading a part of the
schedule?
PSG G: Yes
PSG J: But with paper books we cannot control who reads them/ the
❤️ voice & expression they use etc.If we’re talking about subtle influences, are we sure
that we voice female characters strongly❤️ enough, etc? At least with an audio book or
film, everyone gets closer to the same experience.
PSG G: I think❤️ in the chat with
Lauren, she mentioned that if we design good before & after tests then the ‘quality’ of
❤️ reading or any bias from us reading e.g. tone of voice would be accounted for in some
way? Maybe q&as❤️ for parents etc, or sample size – I haven’t gone back to check but
there seemed to be an answer.
Siân:❤️ Yup – certainly you can control for this ?
PSG G:
Am interested in seeing if possible to see a difference❤️ between books read by people &
audio. But my kids won’t listen to audio books – they go off and❤️ do something else
instead. Maybe we’re just odd!
Sample size
Siân: You would need a reasonable size
sample – at least 20❤️ of you trying each thing
PSG A: One of our strengths as a group is
sample size – for our breast❤️ milk experiment we managed 120 mothers and children to
turning up at a university hospital to donate milk, for example.
Doing❤️ something at
home (with an incentive of free books!) would be fairly easy to recruit for I
imagine.
PSG C: That’s❤️ a great result! I don’t think we’ll struggle to get parents to
join this one, which is another advantage.
PSG D:❤️ Although it might be easier in some
ways to turn up somewhere on one day, than to do something consistently❤️ for two
weeks!
PSG C: Perhaps, but I couldn’t get to London for that donation so we’re opening
it up to❤️ a wider pool of parents.
PSG E: Maybe, but I think i would find it easier to
do something for two❤️ weeks in my house than to travel somewhere so I think both have
pros and cons.
PSG D: Yes, absolutely! I’m❤️ just thinking that personally I’m much more
likely to do a one-off than remember to do it lots of times…
PSG❤️ D: But I may be
particularly crap:-)
PSG C: Yes, I’m the same but my toddler leads the way. If I❤️ have
to read Pirate Dinosaurs one more time ?
PSG E: I think my toddler could be persuaded
but we certainly❤️ need a study flexible enough to cope with the stubborn days
How long
do the messages stick?
Siân: I think Lauren talked❤️ about testing gender stereotypes
before and after – memory tests (what children remember / confuse) are also useful. And
what❤️ hasn’t been done is the longer term impact of these messages – so how long do the
messages stick?
One study❤️ has shown that children remember info. wrong – that they make
the details of the story gender stereotyped when they❤️ weren’t – shows just how embedded
the stereotypes are
PSG F: Wow, that’s actually a little scary!
PSG D: How long term
❤️ would you want to measure?
Siân: I want to check. Six weeks I think was what has been
tested: so looking❤️ at up to six months later would be good 🙂
PSG A: Siân: that’s so
interesting, would you be able to❤️ share the link with us for that study?
Siân: Rebecca
Brueton Sure – Gender Schema and Prejudicial Recall: How Children Misremember,
❤️ Fabricate, and Distort Gendered Picture Book Information.
Is it the same people
interested in books or a different group?
PSG E: Are❤️ there similar people here to the
chat with Lauren? I’m conscious we’re focusing on the bedtime story theme again when❤️ it
didn’t come top of the vote. Although I personally am a big fan of the idea
PSG A: I’ll
check❤️ after… my feeling is possibly not. It’s a popular question (top 3).
PSG E: Cool,
personally I really like the idea❤️ but I know last time there was some concern from
people that it was a done deal
[Edited to add] Just❤️ over half the people at this chat
were not at the previous books chat.
Are children are more likely to play❤️ with a toy if
a parent condones it as gender appropriate?
Siân: Children also get messages from the
toys that are❤️ marketed at them – from films – and from us. One question might be
whether children are more likely to❤️ play with a toy if a parent condones it as gender
appropriate?
e.g. will a boy play with a child if❤️ Mum tells them that it is a girl’s
toy?
PSG E: This is really interesting – the Let Toys Be Toys❤️ PSG group has lots of
anecdotal stories along these lines
PSG F: maybe something along these lines might be
able to❤️ actually give parents something to work with from the outcome? Like if we can
show that a parent can influence❤️ a change in a child’s actual play style or willingness
to step outside gender boundaries by making a simple change❤️ in how they encourage play,
or what they read, then that might really encourage parents to actually, consciously do
it.
PSG❤️ C: Yes, it would be good to see an impact where techniques could be
shared.
Siân: Yes – exactly. Giving children❤️ the same toys with a different message
attached to them, and videoing their play (or lack thereof) with the toy❤️ would be
interesting.
PSG J: I think this is a really interesting idea. Has much been done in
this area?
The other❤️ thing that was touched on in the questions you asked, was about
different types of family and gender bias.
Siân: It❤️ would be interesting to measure the
extent of gender stereotyping in different families – and whose messages children
remember (nodding❤️ at the prestige question, too)
How easy is it to teach a child to
address an envelope to Mrs and Mr.❤️ Higginbottom?
PSG G: Wow – I think I even misread
that on first glance!
PSG E: Me too! I read it more❤️ than once as well ??
PSG A: Could
the answer be – possibly easier than an adult?!
Siân: Could be. I don’t❤️ think it’s been
done. Would be a case of teaching them – and asking for reproductions to see what they
❤️ produced. Could also be done with graphs comparing females and males – lots of
different exercises we could test.
Would be❤️ older children with exposure to stereotypes
already.
PSG E: Does this have similarity to the idea of getting kids to draw
❤️ recognisable professions and see the gender they draw?
Siân: Yes – that’s a related
thing
PSG G: You’d need to have a❤️ particular age group though – writing wise.
Siân: Yes
– although we could do other age appropriate exercises with younger folk
PSG❤️ E: Not
only do they need to be able to write but also old enough to understand the concept of
❤️ Mr. and Mrs. My toddler certainly doesn’t know about married people
PSG K: How would we
go about something like this?❤️ Would we have to have one parent showing gender
stereotypes and one not?
PSG G: Could we get enough family information❤️ to draw
conclusions across families in this?
Siân: You’d need circa 20 children from each type
of family.
What about looking at❤️ gender stereotypes in Apps?
PSG M: I’m pretty sure
that hasn’t been done yet …
PSG G: Would that be the learning❤️ kind of thing? BBC
playtime etc? Or even for older kids – games etc?
PSG A: Uurgh, the gender stereotypes
in❤️ the apps marketed at my 5 year old are extreme 🙁
I let her play games I approve of,
but sometimes❤️ they’re all full of ads for new games, and before I know it, my phone is
chock-a-block with nail painting❤️ and cutesy appearance-based apps aimed at young girls
🙁
Stuff like this Hello Kitty Nail Salon
Siân: Yes – this would be❤️ novel to look at,
too as a medium children have access to.
PSG G: Rebecca wow yes – loads of people❤️ do
get/suffer with these. I don’t think I know any parent who likes them – there is a lot
of❤️ peer/media pressure to get them.
PSG L: There is also friv as a source of gender
stereotype annoyance.
PSG M: Ofcom has❤️ just produced 2024 figures for children’s access
to screens, internet etc. broken down by age. Like it or not, children❤️ are using Apps,
so maybe they warrant a close look
PSG G: Tablets are very common & for parents working
&❤️ busy they are seen as very useful & hopefully educational.
PSG M: Blimey, finger just
slipped and I ended up looking❤️ at that Nail Salon thing, OMG! Well, the commercial apps
with pop up ads are one area, but it would❤️ also be interesting to take a look at some
of the ones that nurseries and reception classes use, just to❤️ check them out, you
know.
Siân: Indeed. You could test a pre-defined selection of apps. And / or if you
have❤️ the technical know-how construct some that are less gender-biased and see what
effect those have on gender bias.
Would this project❤️ and the results be of interest to
the academic community?
PSG C: It’s one thing doing it because we’re interested but❤️ if
the wider world isn’t interested then maybe this isn’t the topic?
PSG A: it’s a good
question – but it❤️ begs another question – are we doing this for the academic community,
or for parents? (Or both, or someone else!)
Playing❤️ devil’s advocate – does it matter
if the academic community aren’t interested, if parents are?
PSG C: Yes, that’s true.
It❤️ might be easier to recruit any expert help we need though if it could contribute to
further studies/link with ‘missing’❤️ research. But, you’re right – what the group wants
is more important.
PSG H: We’re all interested so it stands to❤️ reason others will be
too 🙂
Siân: I think this would be of interest to academics yes – esp. re: the❤️ newer
media (apps et al.).
Could we or would we group families by social class/beliefs
etc?
PSG H: Husband and I have❤️ reversed some traditional gender roles (he cooks and
cleans). Also I am really interested in being as aware as I❤️ can be on gender bias.
Is
this another pro for our group?
Oo I just had a thought! It might well be❤️ worth
measuring.
Have any of our questions been so thoroughly researched already, they’re not
worth pursuing?
PSG A: Or, do you suspect❤️ any of them would be particularly tricky for
us to do as a citizen science group?
Siân: I’m not sure about❤️ the Early Years staff
questions: they would be interesting but I don’t think they play to your strengths and
would❤️ be difficult to execute ethically.
I think playing with the gender messages you
give your children – and the effects that❤️ this has on gender bias would be an awesome
thing to look at 🙂
PSG L: I do like the idea❤️ of doing something about gender
messages.
Siân: You could either manipulate the messages in books etc. or accompanying
toys – or❤️ try teaching your children some gender nonconsistent things and see what they
do with that….
You could also take account of❤️ the type of family / gender roles you
perform as parents – and see if that has an influence.
Siân: It❤️ would be super-easy to
construct an online survey to measure your child’s gender bias
PSG E: Will greater
number of variables❤️ make it harder?
Siân: Nope I don’t think so. They are worth
including so that they can be accounted for statistically❤️ later. Only downside is
having more questions in the survey than not measuring them.
PSG G: What kind of sample
size❤️ might we need to do this conclusively?
Siân: If you’re testing effects before and
after (measure bias: read book / play❤️ with toy /: measure bias) minimum of 20 of each
age being looked at.
PSG G: Siân: – would that be❤️ Year age group for older kids? Would
younger ones be split more than that?
Siân: There aren’t hard and fast rules❤️ – year
group would be a good indicator, certainly.. You could split further if you had reason
to suspect a❤️ developmental change within a given year group – or aggregate across year
groups (key stages) if there was no reason❤️ to suspect a developmental change.
What do
you think of the idea of raising children gender neutral? Is it possible?
Siân: It❤️ is
done in preschools in Sweden – where gender pronouns are banned
…finding is that
children gender stereotype less than when❤️ gendered pronouns are used.
PSG C: Those
Swedes always seem to get it right!
PSG D: But the children are still growing❤️ up in a
gendered society. Albeit maybe less gendered than other ones!
Is there much research
looking at whether there are❤️ ages at which children are more susceptible to gender
bias?
Siân: Children become aware of their gender aged 2/3 years –❤️ after that they are
very susceptible to messages – and prefer same sex friends til they are 11 years…
So
they❤️ have the additional influence of those friends, too. Critical thinking doesn’t
kick in till much later…
PSG G: During primary age❤️ years or later?!
Siân: Aged 12 years
plus is when children start to be able to think more abstractly about things
PSG❤️ E: I
read about children being the strongest policers of gender stereotypes. Did we include
peers as potential strongest influencers?
PSG❤️ G:I think we thought about it but not
sure we had any experiment ideas?
PSG N: So this could be one❤️ of the variables that are
looked at in whichever question(s) are taken forward, depending on sample sizes?
Siân:
You could certainly❤️ include family variables in any survey based study
What one piece
of advice do you wish you’d had before planning your❤️ first experiment?
Siân: Test your
measures with a pilot group before rolling them out across a big study…?
Do the
participants understand❤️ them as you do…?
PSG D: That sounds like very good
advice!
That’s all folks!
PSG A: Thanks so much for joining us❤️ Siân: – you’ve given us
lots to think about!
Siân: Thanks everyone – you’re a great group!
PSG A: Totally
agree, a❤️ great group! Now – to make a great study!
PSG E: So
exciting!
Postscript:
Siân: I think the conclusion here is to look❤️ at messages in
different media and measure children’s gender stereotyping / gender bias
Related
Links
Let Toys Be Toys – Parenting Science❤️ Gang:
Let Toys Be Toys – the campaign:
